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 Post subject: have you recieved this
PostPosted: Sun Oct 21, 2007 7:35 am 
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Where is the " power " that your misinterpretation of this phenomina is supposed to bring ? Those who believe the truth of Christ are filled with His Spirit from the time they believe and the "power " is present as they walk in His law of total mercy . If we have no mercy then we are not walking in The Spirit . If we are not walking in The Spirit then we are not filled with The Spirit .
One thing I know is that people pushing your form of manifestation cannot discern evil spirits and their churches are prone to be hot beds for perverts and all sorts of evil because there is no " power of proper discernment . " There is absolutely no difference in the spirit they have than the spirit of the secular world , I have seen it and proven it .

If you have " the power " then there is no need to argue about it , it will prove itself .


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 22, 2007 5:08 am 
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Les Keane wrote:
Where is the " power " that your misinterpretation of this phenomina is supposed to bring ?

In the transformed lives of the people who have received it:-

I found fulfilling purpose, answers to all personal problems and a new nature, God's.
I have used his spirit to enable many others to believe in the true sense, i.e. they do what Jesus says of believers - they receive His Spirit with signs following.

Otto-repented, got baptized, received the Holy Spirit speaks in tongues, healed of non-Hodgkin’s lymph gland cancer.

Anna- knew nothing about the Bible, repented, got baptized received the Holy Spirit spoke in tongues, healed of alcoholism.

Dan- got baptized in case it was true, was unexpectedly healed of a broken neck of three years, speaks in tongues.

Yarni- repented, got baptized by her dad, healed of eczema covering her body, and speaks in tongues.

Nikki- repented, got baptized speaks in tongues, healed of arthritis in both knees without any operation.

Stephan- repented, got baptized under water, received the Holy Spirit speaking in tongues, delivered from an addiction to drugs, healed from food poisoning. . . . the list goes on.

Les Keane wrote:
Those who believe the truth of Christ are filled with His Spirit from the time they believe and the "power " is present as they walk in His law of total mercy .


I never heard of that law - does it mean you believe that even unrepentant people will be shown mercy.

It is false to say that people are filled with the Spirit as soon as they believe - read Acts 8:12-16 for an example (there are others).

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 Post subject: have you recieved this
PostPosted: Mon Oct 22, 2007 7:28 am 
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I'm posting regularly a study on Christ's law in the Bible study forum , NJA , and you are welcome to read it objectively to learn about this law you say you haven't heard of .
It doesn't surprise me when people deny this law as Martin Luther and the other reformers led people to believe a lie by presenting a half truth that has been carried down to our generation by all the churches .

2 Thessalonians 2:11  And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:

Even though people genuinely repent and believe they are then led away by the traditions of men each filling the other half with their own doctrines hence the vaguaries and opposition to each other . Fill the other half with Christ's law that He provided for us by His sacrifice and there is no reason for any arguements .

As for your proferred list I've seen those before " been there , done that ," and been back to check and found that they weren't healed at all only talking it up . The reality is , if what you say you have was real you would be ' turning the world upside down ' just as Christ's disciples did but I'm afraid to say that no one who speaks the tongues you talk about is doing that .

The reason the early Church turned the world upside down is because they had unity of ' The Spirit " because they believed the truth of Christ's law that is why James calls it the Royal Law ( because Christ is our King ) and we won't see that again until there is unity again .


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 Post subject: have you recieved this
PostPosted: Sun Oct 28, 2007 7:18 am 
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1 Corinthians 13:1  ¶Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, and have not LOVE , I am become as sounding brass, or a tinkling cymbal.
2  And though I have the gift of prophecy, and understand all mysteries, and all knowledge; and though I have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, and have not LOVE, I am nothing.
3  And though I bestow all my goods to feed the poor, and though I give my body to be burned, and have not LOVE, it profiteth me nothing.
4  ¶LOVE suffereth long, and is kind; LOVE envieth not; LOVE vaunteth not itself, is not puffed up,
5  Doth not behave itself unseemly, seeketh not her own, is not easily provoked, thinketh no evil;
6  Rejoiceth not in iniquity, but rejoiceth in the truth;
7  Beareth all things, believeth all things, hopeth all things, endureth all things.
8  ¶LOVE never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away.
9  For we know in part, and we prophesy in part.
10  But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away.


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 28, 2007 8:00 am 
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Les Keane wrote:
[b]1 Corinthians 13:1 ¶Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, and have not LOVE , I am become as sounding brass, or a tinkling cymbal. . . .

If you have never spoken in tongues then you havn't received God's Spirit so you don't even have the "love" (agape) Paul is referring to.

The Corinthians all had it but were not using it.

Paul, a mature Christian, comments:-
1Co:14:18: I thank my God, I speak with tongues more than ye all:
(a crass and boastful thing to say if only some spoke in tongues!)
:19: Yet in the church I had rather speak five words with my understanding

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 Post subject: have you recieved this
PostPosted: Sun Oct 28, 2007 11:56 am 
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I know a lot of people who use the false tounges you r talking about and they do not have love . In fact I would never want the kind of personality they do have .

Paul was talking about being able to use all the languages of the places he visited but saying it was best to use the common language of the place you are at .


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 Post subject: have you recieved this
PostPosted: Sat Jan 05, 2008 5:56 pm 
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Psalms and Hymns ( biblical ) WILL stir ALL .


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PostPosted: Tue Jul 22, 2008 9:38 am 
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Sorry if I'm asking a question thats all ready been touched on but I want to ask "How does someone receive the Holy Spirit"?

It seems to me its our salvation that is of uppermost importance not the gifts or miracles. Whether someone speaks in tongues to me is neither here nor there on the basis God gives different gifts to different people as he sets out in [1 Corinthians 12:] However Paul makes the matter perfectly clear when he says of everything Charity is the true fruit of the believer [1 Corinthians 13]

Please, can anyone setout clearly what the Apostle Peter said and did on the day of Pentecost that caused the people to be filled with the Holy Spirit.

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PostPosted: Sat Jan 24, 2009 3:25 pm 
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Hi John -

Quote:
Please, can anyone setout clearly what the Apostle Peter said and did on the day of Pentecost that caused the people to be filled with the Holy Spirit.


I can't discover that the Apostle Peter did or said anything before the event, but He was prominent after, with explanation and exhortation. The passage of scripture simply says; "When the day of Pentecost came, they were all together in one place;" And goes on to describe the event.

I believe that this discussion arises because folk use the Pentecostal event as a model, when they ought to perceive that is was unique. This was the time when the New Covenant" was still being forged and things were happening for the FIRST time. This event deserved a fanfare, which it got - " a sound like the blowing of a violent wind came from heaven and filled the whole house where they were sitting. 3 They saw what seemed to be tongues of fire that separated and came to rest on each of them."

Up to this time the Holy Spirit of God had never dwelt within a person - the scriptures hitherto spoke of the "Spirit descending" on someone - usually just for a finite time and purpose. The Children of Israel were not led by the Spirit of God, but lived under law.

Pentecost heralded the New Covenant and the real expectation we should have for today is contained in Peter's explanation:
38 Peter replied, "Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit . 39 The promise is for you and your children and for all who are far off--for all whom the Lord our God will call."

God is indivisible (immutable) so you can't separate off portions to suit yourself - If you have accepted Jesus into your heart, then you have the whole package whether you like it or not. As Peter says, "And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit".

When God spoke through Jeremiah, He promised this: "I will put my law in their minds and write it on their hearts." And through Joel He promised, "28 `And afterward, I will pour out my Spirit on all people." This promise is not provisional to SOME people, but to ALL

Whether the manifestations of the the Spirit are immediately apparent in your life is up to the particular contract that God makes with each person. He treats us all differently, as individuals, and it is totally wrong to make up rules like, "You can't be born again if you don't speak in tongues;" or "Speaking in tongues is a sign of the devil".

I like the scriptural analogies, and the relevant one here is; "7 I tell you the truth, anyone who will not receive the kingdom of God like a little child will never enter it.". Just as in life some kids are born prodigies and some aren't, so it is when we are born again spiritually - some burst forth with the gift of tongues, some have to learn a word at a time, the hard way, and some stay dumb.

I also like the point Les made early in this discussion - the fruit of the Spirit is what we should look at, and seeing the fruit of Love, Joy, Peace, Patience, and so on is the only reliable indicator of the presence (or absence) of the Holy Spirit; not whether an individual has been blessed with some specific spiritual GIFT.

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 Post subject: have you recieved this
PostPosted: Sat May 01, 2010 9:00 am 
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Why Paul wrote Romans
-by Juergen Buehler

In the very heart of his epistle to the Church in Rome, the Apostle Paul devotes three entire chapters to the relationship between Israel and Gentile Christians. Yet his teachings on Israel go well beyond chapters 9 to 11, and can be found throughout the Book of Romans.

In chapter 1, verse 16, Paul immediately proclaims that the gospel is “to the Jew first, and also to the Greek”. In chapter 2, he addresses the issue of Jewish identity and the benefit of circumcision. Then in chapter 3, Paul twice poses the question whether there is any advantage left in being Jewish, which he answers in the affirmative. And so forth…

Israel is therefore a theme which resonates throughout his message to the Roman believers, more so than any of his other letters to the churches of Asia Minor. This raises the question: Why did Paul write more on this subject to the Roman church? The reason can be found in an often overlooked passage: “Greet Priscilla and Aquila, my fellow workers in Christ Jesus” (Romans 16:3).

The Expulsion from Rome
Priscilla and Aquila had been co-workers with Paul for a number of years. In the Book of Acts, we meet this devout couple for the first time when Paul arrives in the Greek city of Corinth.

“After these things Paul departed from Athens and went to Corinth. And he found a certain Jew named Aquila, born in Pontus, who had recently come from Italy with his wife Priscilla (because Claudius had commanded all the Jews to depart from Rome)” (Acts 18:1-2).

The couple helped Paul to establish the church in Corinth and moved on with him to Ephesus, where they remained active in church planting alongside Paul. Like him, they were followers of Jesus of Jewish descent. In Acts, we learn that they were forced to leave Rome because the Emperor Claudius had expelled all Jews from Rome.

The Roman historian Suetonius confirms this event while the early church historian Orosius gives the date as the year 49 AD. Suetonius explains the expulsion came about because of the “disturbances and riots among the Jews at the instigation of Chrestus”. Most church historians today agree that this refers to Christ. Apparently, there was an internal dispute among the Jews of Rome over the Messianic claims of Jesus, as had happened in Jerusalem (Acts 8:1), Antioch (Acts 15:50); Iconium (Act 14:1-7), Thessalonica and Berea (Acts 17), and elsewhere. But Claudius had little tolerance for their debate and expelled all the Jews.

This included Priscilla and Aquila, who fled to Corinth where they met up with Paul. For several years, they joined his ministry team, moving with him to Ephesus. But when a new emperor arose in Rome named Nero, he allowed the Jews to return in 54 AD. Priscilla and Aquila also returned, which is why Paul greets them at the end of his letter.

The first gentile church
The expulsion of Jews from Rome is therefore of central importance in understanding Paul’s message to the church there. The church in Rome had existed long before Paul ever arrived. Like other churches in those early decades, many congregants and undoubtedly most of the teachers were Jewish. They were the most versed in the Scriptures, which at that time consisted of only the Old Testament. Thus when Claudius expelled the Jews, this meant the church in Rome was probably the first one entirely made up of Gentiles. This must have presented a great challenge. All the teachers and elders who had instructed them every Sabbath were gone!

Yet the Holy Spirit was also with them and the Gentile believers managed to keep the church in Rome intact and growing on their own for a season. This likely brought a new sense of confidence, as they discovered the church could still operate without the Jews.

Tensions with the return to Rome
But then Jews were allowed to return, and no doubt tensions arose. Priscilla and Aquila were among those who came back, where they probably encountered a changed attitude towards them. The historic context strongly suggests that Paul wrote to the church in Rome to set things in order and resolve the tensions between the new Gentile leadership and the returning Jew ish congregants.

For instance, we see Paul firmly admonishing the Gentiles not to forget their spiritual roots are in Judaism. Even in his initial greeting, he reminds them that Jesus “was born of the seed of David according to the flesh”. But in chapter 2, he also advises the returning Jews to lead through example more than words. And in chapter 14, he addresses questions regarding Jewish dietary laws which seem to have surfaced.

Still, the main thrust of the letter is directed towards Gentile believers and their need to respect the Jewish roots of their faith. Paul stressed that the oracles, covenants and redemptive purpose of God began centuries earlier with the Jewish people. In addition, he made clear that the Messiah was not a Roman but descended from King David’s royal lineage.

The Roman church found itself in a conflict between Jew and Gentile from which it may never have recovered. Eventually, we find Priscilla and Aquila back in Ephesus, where Paul greets them again in 2 Timothy 4:19. Meanwhile, several decades later, the church at Rome became the breeding ground for Replacement theology, as one of the greatest heretics of the early Church – Marcion – arose from the fellowship in Rome.

He taught there from 137 until 144 AD, and maintained that the God of the Old Testament was one of vengeance and wrath, whereas the God of the New Testament was a different Deity, one of love and mercy. And even some of the books of the New Testament were too “Jewish” for him. Marcion was finally expelled from the church, but would end up taking large numbers of Gentile Christians with him. The impact of his erroneous doctrines – based on a rejection of Jews because they largely rejected Jesus – is still felt to this day.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Dr. Buehler is the international director of the International Christian Embassy Jerusalem; www.icej.org/


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 Post subject: have you recieved this
PostPosted: Sat May 01, 2010 11:14 am 
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Hi Chris ,
I posted that treatise in order to point out that we will always have arguements until the day that Jesus Christ returns . Our natural or carnal nature will always be fighting against the spiritual because we have not yet been changed completely .
Romans 7:14  ¶For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.
Romans 8:7  Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.

Paul & Baranabas argued , Peter & John argued and separated but they still carried on with their commision . Only once we " all know Him " will this stop . Personally I wasn't arguing just pointing out how I have found things to be and I don't see that any of the others were either . It is the condemnation from others that should not be happening because for us now there is no condemnation in Christ Jesus .

Romans 8:1  ¶There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

When you made your " confession " in another thread you were not failing it was just your natural man coming forward for a while and then you overcame him by the " blood of the Lamb " . There is absolutely no reason to feel guilty or a failure . It happens to us all .
Revelation 12:11  And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.

1 Corinthians 2:14  But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

I also don't follow the scaremongering doctrine of future tribulation . The early Christians went through that :-
Hebrews 11:37  They were stoned, they were sawn asunder, were tempted, were slain with the sword: they wandered about in sheepskins and goatskins; being destitute, afflicted, tormented;
The only thing that hasn't been fulfilled yet is the unity that Jesus prayed we would be given .The only way that can be accomplished is if we all believe that He established His Royal Law , by the shedding of His blood , just as the Apostles did . Then He can unite us . We cannot do this and the myriad of different doctrines and churches make that obvious .

No one will ever find the truth taught in any of the man made empirical churches . It is time for the New Church to rise based on the Royal Law .


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 Post subject: have you recieved this
PostPosted: Sat May 01, 2010 8:58 pm 
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Hi Chris ,
Even though this is my own site I still haven't worked out how to use the quotes properly . There were some changes after the hacker broke in and Rhys , the IT wizz is now living in Adelaide so I can't just pop around the corner for help any more .
Your first Query was about how others see our debating differences . I have learnt that this is not really our problem to worry about and some things I thought I had done wrong actually helped other people because God was making it work for good , it then becomes His work and not ours which are as filthy rags anyway . That , I guess leads to the law problem that no Christian should have . The Royal law is simply loving your neighbour as yourself . Jesus called this the second commandment , The first being to Love God with all our heart and soul and that is why James called it the Royal law because Jesus is our King . " King of kings and lord of lords . " The new Church is simply returning to the beliefs and teachings of the original and the unity they had in the Spirit of Christ .
Right through the New Testament we are taught how to love our neighbour as ourselves and these become the works of Christ , which He can the use for His good , if we believe this is why he died and rose again for us . If we don't believe then they are our own works and are as sounding brass and tinkling cymbols of no use whatsoever . If we are only believing half of what He did then we are believing a lie and can only then rely on the old testament law which nobody could ever keep anyway . The world , and I have found , Church oganisations still try and survive by the O.T . law and what a mess they are in . Using the Royal Law we don't go anywhere near the need for Moses' law .

When I said unity is the only thing not fulfilled yet I meant before Christ's return .
The rapture is another biblical myth . Going to heaven is a myth . ( I haven't got all the facts at my finger tips right now but aparently the book " shocked by the Bible , " says that too . I've checked and double checked all those things taught by churches and find that they are just not in the Bible if you read it objectively . Sermonisers miss out words and phrases etc , and lead the sheep astray .
Jeremiah 50:6  My people hath been lost sheep: their shepherds have caused them to go astray, they have turned them away on the mountains: they have gone from mountain to hill, they have forgotten their restingplace.

Christ returns to the earth and rules and reigns for a thousand years during which time it may be that everyone on earth is converted as the Bible says the whole world will be saved .
Jeremiah 23:4  And I will set up shepherds over them which shall feed them: and they shall fear no more, nor be dismayed, neither shall they be lacking, saith the LORD.
( before or after His return , I don't know )
Then a new heaven and a new earth are created and we live in the City of our God forever .

I'm tired now so will have to stop . I hope you can follow what I'm trying to present but please ask me anything about it . The answers to all the usual questions thrown up by the old church are all there but I can only present them when asked . A lot of people have left this forum because it doesn't fit in with the teachings they follow but the forum is still here even though I have wondered why at times but encouragement has always come along .


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PostPosted: Sun Jun 27, 2010 9:33 am 
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If we do an indepth exegesis of 1 Corinthians 14, we note the following:

Paul acknowledges there is a gift of tongues.
The person speaking does not understand what he is saying.
When he prays in tongues he is praying to God.
God understands what is being said.
When a person prays in tongues he is giving thanks "well", that is, appropriately.
Paul prayed in tongues more than anyone else.
His desire was that all spoke in tongues although He acknowledged that not all did.
He says not to forbid the speaking of tongues.
Prophecy is preferred to tongues in the public worship service because it is important that what is said there is understood by all to be edifying.
He also said somewhere else that he wanted others to be followers of him as he was of Christ. This would include his practice of speaking in tongues.

To say that a person who believes he or she is baptised with the Spirit and speaks in tongues is deluded with a strong demonic delusion (which is implied), goes against many principles of Scripture. Most Charismatics who speak in tongues glorify Jesus as supreme and acknowledge Him as Lord. According to John, only people who are motivated by the Holy Spirit can do that. Also, the gift of tongues is clearly taught in Scripture so Charismatics are not violating Scripture at all, but are following a clearly taught principle.

In Acts 2, the 120 who spoke in tongues did not understand what they were saying, and the crowd outside who heard all their regional dialects were amazed that a group of "uneducated" Galileans could be speaking all those languages. If you see the list of languages, you can see the ridiculousness of believing that this group of Galileans were so expert in all the languages of the known world that they could speak them fluently. The only explanation is that the 120 spoke in unknown tongues as the Spirit enabled them, and a miracle took place in the ears of the crowd that they heard their own languages spoken.

In all the examples of people getting baptised with the Spirit in the book of Acts, tongues was a feature. This, along with Paul's teaching in 1 Corinthians, makes it quite clear that Charismatics are motivated by the Holy Spirit in their use of the gifts of the Spirit, including tongues and prophecy.

If people don't understand it, then it is because God has not given them the revelation of it, and this mostly because of prejudice and lack of knowledge of the will of God. Paul prays for the Colossians, and it is applicable to us too, (Col 1:9-11) that we be filled with the knowledge of God's will with all spiritual understanding. The knowledge of how God works today, using His spiritual resources, is something that comes by revelation after a person seeks God with a hungry heart wanting more of him.

Those who are satisfied with going to church and singing three hymns and hearing a moralistic sermon will remain as they are - pretty well limited and fruitless in their Christian walk.

The baptism with the Spirit and the use of the gifts are more than just a Charismatic thing, it is part of what the Christian church should be. Paul wrote his epistles for people who are baptised with the Spirit, because only they would be able to understand most of what he wrote.

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 Post subject: have you recieved this
PostPosted: Wed Aug 11, 2010 8:27 am 
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Hi Oscar ,
Once again you have put your interpretation on a scripture . If , as I have explained before , you use the proper word for tongues which is the Greek used by all the Israelites dispersed around Europe then none of what you say makes any sense .
On the other hand if a proper language is being used and /or the local language Pauls writings make complete sense .
For example :- In NZ if someone speaks in Maori at a meeting a lot of people won't understand it but if they then interpret it all becomes clear .
Men tend to put their own slant on beliefs over years and also by personal experience I know that your interpretation produces evil results so with the two witnesses , ie , Greek for tongues and face to face experience with the evil produced by pentecostals evils I reject your man made interpretation and rather follow the doctrine of Christ .


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 11, 2010 7:24 pm 
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Les Keane wrote:
Hi Oscar ,
Once again you have put your interpretation on a scripture . If , as I have explained before , you use the proper word for tongues which is the Greek used by all the Israelites dispersed around Europe then none of what you say makes any sense .
On the other hand if a proper language is being used and /or the local language Pauls writings make complete sense .
For example :- In NZ if someone speaks in Maori at a meeting a lot of people won't understand it but if they then interpret it all becomes clear .
Men tend to put their own slant on beliefs over years and also by personal experience I know that your interpretation produces evil results so with the two witnesses , ie , Greek for tongues and face to face experience with the evil produced by pentecostals evils I reject your man made interpretation and rather follow the doctrine of Christ .


I just took the Scripture at face value. Your statement "evil produced by pentecostals evils" sounds to me like prejudice, which might be the basis of your interpretation.

There are nearly 500 million people who are baptised with the Holy Spirit and who speak in tongues in the way that you condemn and call "evil". What you are actually saying is that all these people are inspired by the devil, because he is the source of evil.

The problem is that the people you are calling "evil" are those who firmly believe that Jesus Christ is their Lord, and they live holy lives to put that into practice. Is there more than one Jesus? More than one faith? Is Christ divided? Who is out of step? The 500 million people who are living and worshiping Christ as Lord, or those who condemn a large slice of the Body of Christ as being of the devil?

I know that Jesus is my Lord, and I am baptised with the Holy Spirit and speak in tongues as specified in 1Corinthians 14. If you say that I am of the devil and "evil", then I take that as a badge of honour and rejoice in the Lord Jesus that I am following in the footsteps of my Master whom the Pharisees said that He performed His miracles through the power of the devil.

The Lord judge between you and me, because I appeal to Jesus Christ, who is at the right hand of God, and who intercedes for the saints, to deal with you according to His will.

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