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 Post subject: Have you received this?
PostPosted: Tue Sep 25, 2007 5:00 am 
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I read through Acts and noticed that they knew precisely when people received the Holy Spirit, not when people professed faith or "prayed the sinners prayer" or "gave their heart to Jesus" but by the sign of speaking in tongues. (Acts 2:4, 33; 10:44-48; 19:1-6)

I was wondering if anyone else had noticed this?

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 Post subject: have you recieved this
PostPosted: Tue Sep 25, 2007 3:39 pm 
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Howdy NJA ,
I have heard it put that way before but having lived among pentecostals all my life I would have to say that their interpretation of 'tongues' brings out real bad fruit everywhere it has been used . Their version is used for hierarchy climbing , domination of those who don't use it , self interest and empire building .
What I consider to be the right interpretation is that the disciples were speaking to the dispersed Israelites who were visiting Jerusalem for the feast of Pentecost from there home countries , Greece etc ., and they were totally surprised to hear the Gospel in their own language .
Being filled with the Holy Spirit means that our lives and speech present the Gospel of Christ with power as Paul said , not confusion or the ' good feeling ' of self interest .
Having seen and been a victim of the self interest , therefore ungodly , version I now stand with the POWER version . The power of The Spirit of God permeates our lives at all times .


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PostPosted: Wed Sep 26, 2007 6:25 am 
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Les Keane wrote:
Howdy NJA ,
I have heard it put that way before but having lived among pentecostals all my life I would have to say that their interpretation of 'tongues' brings out real bad fruit everywhere it has been used . . . ..

I cannot speak about the "pentecostals" you know, but purely from a biblical perspective your interpretation doesn't seem to fit.

1Co:14:2: For he that speaks in a tongue speaks not unto men, but unto God: for no man understandeth him; howbeit in the spirit he speaks mysteries .. .4: . . . he edifies himself
:14: For if I pray in an unknown tongue, my spirit prays, but my understanding is unfruitful. . . .how shall he that occupies the room of the unlearned say Amen at thy giving of thanks, seeing he understands not what you say? :17: For you verily give thanks well, but the other is not edified.

So, the speaker doesn't understand what he/she says - it is UNKNOWN to the speaker, AND the hearer doesn't understand because he/she is not being spoken to.

Even if people recognise the words, they do not really understand what's being said because it's talking about spiritual things which the natural man cannot understand.

Like if I'm walking down the Champs Elyses in Paris and I overhear two Americans, I will recognoise their words, but I will NOT UNDERSTAND who they are talking about, they are NOT talking to me !

This fits in with Pentecost where:-
"they were all amazed, and were in doubt, saying one to another, What meaneth this? Others mocking said, These men are full of new wine." (Acts 2:12-13)

NONE of the hearers understood !!!
Neither does it say they were "preaching the gospel".

As a result Peter stands up, raises his voice and speaks TO the confused crown of over-hearing Jews in the common, learned jewish language
14: But Peter, standing up with the eleven, lifted up his voice,

- THEN they understand the gospel.

The hearers already spoke Jewish, they were bi-lingual, so these people took the gospel back to the known world without anyone having to learn a new language!


The main purpose of tongues is, and always was, allowing the Holy Spirit lead us in prayer according to God's perfect will for us, to minister the peace that passes understanding, the joy unspeakable and the love that surpasses knowledge . .
"for we know not what we should pray for as we ought: but the Spirit itself maketh intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered" (Romans 8:26)

"But ye, beloved, building up yourselves on your most holy faith, praying in the Holy Ghost, Keep yourselves in the love of God . ." (Jude 20-21)

I have seen nothing but good fruit where these things are believed!

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PostPosted: Wed Sep 26, 2007 2:01 pm 
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Gidday again , NJA .
You seem to be somewhat confused which is not how a believer should be . To start with you are lumping the Israelites in with the Jews and also just picking out the bits of scripture you want to give your self interest theory a false staus .Heres some of the rest .

Acts 2:5  ¶And there were dwelling at Jerusalem Jews, devout men, out of every nation under heaven.
6  Now when this was noised abroad, the multitude came together, and were confounded, because that every man heard them speak in his own language.
7  And they were all amazed and marvelled, saying one to another, Behold, are not all these which speak Galilaeans?
8  And how hear we every man in our own tongue, wherein we were born?
9  Parthians, and Medes, and Elamites, and the dwellers in Mesopotamia, and in Judaea, and Cappadocia, in Pontus, and Asia,
10  Phrygia, and Pamphylia, in Egypt, and in the parts of Libya about Cyrene, and strangers of Rome, Jews and proselytes,
11  Cretes and Arabians, """ we do hear them speak in our tongues the wonderful works of God. """
12  And they were all amazed, and were in doubt, saying one to another, What meaneth this?
13  Others mocking said, These men are full of new wine.

In other words all the ' tongues ' could be understood .

Romans 8:26  ¶Likewise the Spirit also helpeth our infirmities: for we know not what we should pray for as we ought: but the Spirit itself maketh intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered.
( No speaking here . Cannot be uttered means just that , cannot be uttered . Anything else is false .)

Jude 1:20  But ye, beloved, building up yourselves on your most holy faith, praying in the Holy Ghost,
( This doesn't say anything about speaking in togues and yet you are using it with the other scriptures to implie that it does . That is lying . )

1 Corinthians 14:1  ¶Follow after charity, and desire spiritual gifts, but rather that ye may prophesy.
2  For he that speaketh in an unknown tongue speaketh not unto men, but unto God: for no man understandeth him; howbeit in the spirit he speaketh mysteries.
3  But he that prophesieth speaketh unto men to edification, and exhortation, and comfort.
4  He that speaketh in an unknown tongue edifieth himself; but he that prophesieth edifieth the church.
5  I would that ye all spake with tongues, but rather that ye prophesied: for greater is he that prophesieth than he that speaketh with tongues, except he interpret, that the church may receive edifying.
6  ¶Now, brethren, if I come unto you speaking with tongues, what shall I profit you, except I shall speak to you either by revelation, or by knowledge, or by prophesying, or by doctrine?
7  And even things without life giving sound, whether pipe or harp, except they give a distinction in the sounds, how shall it be known what is piped or harped?
8  For if the trumpet give an uncertain sound, who shall prepare himself to the battle?
9  So likewise ye, except ye utter by the tongue words easy to be understood, how shall it be known what is spoken? for ye shall speak into the air.
10  There are, it may be, so many kinds of voices in the world, and none of them is without signification.
11  Therefore if I know not the meaning of the voice, I shall be unto him that speaketh a barbarian, and he that speaketh shall be a barbarian unto me.
12  Even so ye, forasmuch as ye are zealous of spiritual gifts, seek that ye may excel to the edifying of the church.
13  Wherefore let him that speaketh in an unknown tongue pray that he may interpret.
14  For if I pray in an unknown tongue, my spirit prayeth, but my understanding is unfruitful.
15  ¶What is it then? I will pray with the spirit, and I will pray with the understanding also: I will sing with the spirit, and I will sing with the understanding also.
16  Else when thou shalt bless with the spirit, how shall he that occupieth the room of the unlearned say Amen at thy giving of thanks, seeing he understandeth not what thou sayest?
17  For thou verily givest thanks well, but the other is not edified.
18  I thank my God, I speak with tongues more than ye all:
19  Yet in the church I had rather speak five words with my understanding, that by my voice I might teach others also, than ten thousand words in an unknown tongue.
20  Brethren, be not children in understanding: howbeit in malice be ye children, but in understanding be men.
21  ¶In the law it is written, With men of other tongues and other lips will I speak unto this people; and yet for all that will they not hear me, saith the Lord.
22  Wherefore tongues are for a sign, not to them that believe, but to them that believe not: but prophesying serveth not for them that believe not, but for them which believe.
23  If therefore the whole church be come together into one place, and all speak with tongues, and there come in those that are unlearned, or unbelievers, will they not say that ye are mad?
24  But if all prophesy, and there come in one that believeth not, or one unlearned, he is convinced of all, he is judged of all:
25  And thus are the secrets of his heart made manifest; and so falling down on his face he will worship God, and report that God is in you of a truth.
26  ¶How is it then, brethren? when ye come together, every one of you hath a psalm, hath a doctrine, hath a tongue, hath a revelation, hath an interpretation. Let all things be done unto edifying.
27  If any man speak in an unknown tongue, let it be by two, or at the most by three, and that by course; and let one interpret.
28  But if there be no interpreter, let him keep silence in the church; and let him speak to himself, and to God.
29  Let the prophets speak two or three, and let the other judge.
30  If any thing be revealed to another that sitteth by, let the first hold his peace.
31  For ye may all prophesy one by one, that all may learn, and all may be comforted.
32  And the spirits of the prophets are subject to the prophets.
33  For God is not the author of confusion, but of peace, as in all churches of the saints.

By the way NJA it is not my interpretation but that of a scholar who took the time to study it properly . If you take 1 Cor ch 14 it makes more since using the words , foreign language , than tongues .


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Sep 27, 2007 5:48 am 
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Les Keane wrote:
Gidday again , NJA . You seem to be somewhat confused which is not how a believer should be . To start with you are lumping the Israelites in with the Jews and also just picking out the bits of scripture you want to give your self interest theory a false staus .Heres some of the rest .
Wow, 2 accusations, let's see if either are true . . .

Les Keane wrote:
In other words all the ' tongues ' could be understood .
They were at that time bacause there were bi-lingual jews from all over the known world. Do you understand that they heard them spaking about God's works, which leaves them confused, so clearly they were not having the gospel explained to them?

Les Keane wrote:
Romans 8:26 ¶Likewise the Spirit also helpeth our infirmities: for we know not what we should pray for as we ought: but the Spirit itself maketh intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered.
( No speaking here . Cannot be uttered means just that , cannot be uttered . Anything else is false .)
talk about self-interest theory !
It says we know not - in other words, we as natural people don't know the hidden will of God, but the Spirit does ! He has the words ! That's why we need to allow him to lead us in prayer in new tongues (language).

"God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God.
For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God.
Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God." (1 Cor. 2:10-12)


Les Keane wrote:
Jude 1:20 But ye, beloved, building up yourselves on your most holy faith, praying in the Holy Ghost,
( This doesn't say anything about speaking in togues and yet you are using it with the other scriptures to implie that it does . That is lying . )

Tongues is prayer, of the Holy Spirit, see 1 Cor. 14. it edifies the speaker, i.e. builds up their faith.

What is praying in the Holy Spirit Les?
Paul says that when he does it his understanding is unfruoitful and others won't be able to say "Amen" cos they don't understand either, he will be like a barbarian to them - so, if not tongues, how do you do it please?

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Sep 27, 2007 7:41 am 
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Please use all the surrounding scripture NJA , so that we can get what they say as a whole rather than your , or should I say the traditionally accepted false thinking version . Anyone who has been tricked into believing a half truth about Christ's deliverence for us will always go along with all the other deceptions because their thinking has not been changed . We have to have that change of thinking before being able to read the truth .

Once again you are starting from a preconcieved traditional stance rather than being objective about what you are reading and prefer to argue over the matter rather than just giving your opinion . The fruit of dominance by arguement is not the fruit of the Holy Spirit and I , for one won't be dominated by others only Christ .


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Sep 27, 2007 12:20 pm 
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Les Keane wrote:
. . . .The fruit of dominance by arguement is not the fruit of the Holy Spirit and I , for one won't be dominated by others only Christ .

It wasn't just Pentecost, at other times, even in the middle of nowhere, people truly dominated by Christ immediately spoke in tongues when they received His Spirit.

When they did it was judged that they had just received, no-one suggested that maybe they had received sometime before but just got tongues.

There is one gospel, no amount of sophistry gets you round the fact that you either have or have not received the same. If you havn't then you must either repent or face the consequences.

1Cor. 4:20: For the kingdom of God is not in word, but in power.

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 Post subject: have you recieved this
PostPosted: Thu Sep 27, 2007 8:49 pm 
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Oh dear , oh dear , NJA .


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 Post subject: have you recieved this
PostPosted: Sun Sep 30, 2007 7:11 am 
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What I really need to say here is that there is a real recieving of the Holy Spirit by all who believe the truth of Christ but there is also a false imitation portraying evil fruit that those who have only been given a half truth can be decieved into using .
The Spirit of God brings love , joy and peace , the other , bickering and confusion .


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 Post subject: Fruit of the Spirit
PostPosted: Sun Sep 30, 2007 1:02 pm 
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Good point Les, the fruit of the Spirit is unmistakable, and in fact Jesus said that the "Fruit" is the yardstick by which we can measure everything. The counterfeits offered by the powers of darkness cannot ever offer God's true love, they can mimic everything else, including tongues and other common spirit manifestations, but NOT love.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Oct 01, 2007 7:32 am 
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The believers in Acts 8:5-16 showed great joy, faith and other good fruit but it was known that they had not actually received the Holy Spirit, similarly for the disciples themselves before Pentecost and the Gentiles in Acts 10 etc.
And it was known precisely when people did receive the Spirit! - never by fruit.
It is not God's love to tell people they have received the Spirit when in fact they havn't.

Religious people mimic love, but when someone comes along with the correct use of scripture it soon exposes what's beneath their sheep's clothing.

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 Post subject: have you recieved this
PostPosted: Fri Oct 19, 2007 8:24 pm 
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1Cor. 4:20: For the kingdom of God is not in word, but in power.


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PostPosted: Sat Oct 20, 2007 3:51 am 
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Les Keane wrote:
1Cor. 4:20: For the kingdom of God is not in word, but in power.

Yup! Those people started truly believing so the signs started following, then they accepted that they still needed to receive the Spirit, so something else happened.

. . . Jesus healed & cast out devils saying the kingdom has come near to you, no-one spoke in tongues until the kingdom was in them by them receiving the Spirit.

Like travelling to another city, there are signs when you are on the way, and a different sign when you get there.
The new tongue signifies receiving the new heart for "from the abundance of he heart the mouth speaks".

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 Post subject: have you recieved this
PostPosted: Sat Oct 20, 2007 7:53 pm 
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Ephesians 5: 18 .....be filled with the Spirit;
19  Speaking to yourselves in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing and making melody in your heart to the Lord;


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 21, 2007 6:01 am 
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Les Keane wrote:
Ephesians 5: 18 .....be filled with the Spirit;
19 Speaking to yourselves in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing and making melody in your heart to the Lord;
The "yourselves" are people that have all received the infilling of the Spirit:-

Acts 19:1: And it came to pass, that, while Apollos was at Corinth, Paul having passed through the upper coasts came to Ephesus. . . .
:6: And when Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Ghost came on them; and they spake with tongues, and prophesied.

Eph:6:18: Praying always with all prayer and supplication in the Spirit


Singing "spiritual songs" doesn't have the same benefit for people that havn't cos they havn't got the life they presume to sing about.

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